tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7155226280212467063.post4544321750829304602..comments2024-03-05T06:16:30.628-06:00Comments on Mary and Mariology: New World Mary vs. Old World MaryServant of Maryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13686441055922333147noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7155226280212467063.post-159163667404086322015-12-03T19:19:03.507-06:002015-12-03T19:19:03.507-06:00What I find interesting in the comparison talk bet...What I find interesting in the comparison talk between “Old World” and “New World” Mary is to think about these versions of Mary in relation to the Mary of the miracles. What are the similarities between Mary who performs miracles compared to an apparition of Mary? For one, we see a lot of the same light imagery playing forth in both the miracle and apparition stories. In the “Old World” stories she “shines brighter than the sun” (Christian 28), and in the “New World” texts Mary is said to have a pure face, from which very great light emerges (Burkhart 103). We see this light imagery in the miracle stories, as well, where Mary is repeatedly referred to as star of the sea in the series from Rocamadour. Beyond simply appearance though, I think it is interesting that in a lot of ways, the Mary from the “new World” behaves much more like the Mary we see in the miracle stories, as someone who is a protector, who is merciful, compassionate, and motherly. My curiosity is peaked at why we see this common behavior between the “Old World” miracle stories and the “New World” apparitions, rather than the “Old World” apparitions. Is the time span between the miracle accounts and the Marian apparitions enough time to already be showing a shift in the way Mary is perceived among Europeans? Are we already seeing the shift to modern era skepticism that wasn’t present in an earlier period? Perhaps then, the “New World” apparition stories are more in line with Mary from the miracles because of the newness of Mary and the lack of skepticism and warmth in character that comes with it. <br />-SMServant of Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13686441055922333147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7155226280212467063.post-89805535426255391592015-12-03T13:30:16.625-06:002015-12-03T13:30:16.625-06:00Though I hesitate to place these Marian stories in...Though I hesitate to place these Marian stories in this light, one thought that comes to mind, when considering why the depictions of Mary in the new and old world differ so much, is that perhaps it has to do with the larger context of the place and time. There are many differences between Spain and the New World at the time, but one key difference is that, in the New World, conversion was more the goal – rather than in Spain which was perched precariously between the end of the Inquisition and the beginning of the religious wars following the Protestant-Catholic schism. After all, they say one catches more flies with honey rather than vinegar, so a gentle Virgin Mary may have been found to be a more effective image. To me, this feels too much like the kind of “social-realist” thinking against which we were warned at the beginning of the term, but thinking about these contexts may also help to clarify why these differences exist. - LDDServant of Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13686441055922333147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7155226280212467063.post-20905964819371893112015-11-28T16:51:40.010-06:002015-11-28T16:51:40.010-06:00While I share your hesitancy regarding the small s...While I share your hesitancy regarding the small sample size here, you do a good job of summing up all of the stories and pointing out the pattern that emerges. The Spanish apparitions that we read about do seem to have a harsh edge, more in line with some of the miracle stories we read than earlier discussions or visions of the Virgin (or later apparitions, for that matter!). The Virgin in the Guadalupe story seems to fall in line with the standard sort of Marian vocabulary we've seen all quarter and yet is remarkably gentle. She is, even today, a very appealing figure. It may be worth looking at the Spanish apparitions to see if the violence and perception of terror there serves any particular role. Visitations from angels and other holy figures traditionally inspires an awe or fear in those who receive the visitations. The boy's beating from the monks does function to further the Virgin's agenda, but it's definitely not the image of mater misericordiae. I think that this sort of analysis with a large enough sample size may help us unpack some of the trends in these tales and figure out what exactly is going on. -ZSRServant of Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13686441055922333147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7155226280212467063.post-25661704182559876412015-11-17T21:15:08.044-06:002015-11-17T21:15:08.044-06:00I believe that the differing depictions of Mary in...I believe that the differing depictions of Mary in the Old and New World have something to do with the attended audience, but I am not sure how to interpret it. So although it appears to make sense to present Mary as a more loving power in a newly converted land, was this to create a more attractive alternative to other forms of worship, or a way of being closer to indigenous religions. I do not know how unified religion was across the New World, but considering the popular stories of human sacrifice during the conquests of the New World; indigenous religions appear to have been familiar with ideas of a vengeful or strict God. However, could Mary have been filling in as a replacement to a more loving aspect of indigenous religion? The stricter version of Old World Mary would have been a potentially harmful conversion tool. I am not sure people would have considered foreign religions in this way, and thought of how to best provide alternatives though. I am curious to know what depictions of Mary were like in English, and French New World colonies. I assume that discussions of Mary were limited in the more Protestant English colonies, but what about in Catholic New France?<br /><br />HPB<br />Servant of Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13686441055922333147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7155226280212467063.post-65168618222354107542015-11-15T16:04:51.031-06:002015-11-15T16:04:51.031-06:00Like dyingst, I am intrigued by the comparison you...Like dyingst, I am intrigued by the comparison you draw between the Old and New World stories and wonder about why?! Ironically, of course, one of the things that we are often told about the New World situation is that it was horribly violent (see Las Casas), and yet, here we have Mary portrayed as acting much more gently towards Juan Diego than towards any of the seers in the Castilian stories. I confess, I am not sure what to make of this, although it does seem to speak well of the missionaries and the way in which they seem to have portrayed Mary in their preaching to the people like Juan Diego. RLFBServant of Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13686441055922333147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7155226280212467063.post-27463696027813778382015-11-15T12:22:07.194-06:002015-11-15T12:22:07.194-06:00These are some very interesting observations here....These are some very interesting observations here. The question that naturally comes to mind is, of course, why? Why might the Old World visions be so terrifying in comparison to the New? Perhaps this speaks to a distinction between an already converted land, where the reality of God (and therefore Mary's) power is evident in the material wealth and power of the Church, and a new frontier, where the Church's presence is tenuous and not yet pervasive? It would be interesting to look to see if stories of Marian apparitions in the New World and the Old changed as time went on. <br /><br />Interesting also was your suggestion that it was the how of the Old World Marian appearances that may have motivated the authorities to seek notarized affidavits, what do you specifically think about the how would have motivated this? dyingsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02087241514388178221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7155226280212467063.post-4466259110783276602015-11-15T10:23:50.684-06:002015-11-15T10:23:50.684-06:00One other element from the story of Juan Diego oug...One other element from the story of Juan Diego ought to be considered in trying to distinguish between Old and New World Mary. As the author highlighted, when one of the little boys hesitated to obey Mary she had him beaten and made it so that the whole town would see. However, when Juan Diego avoids promptly doing Mary’s bidding he is treated kindly. On the day he is supposed to deliver the sign to the Bishop, Juan Diego delays and tries to avoid Mary because he must take care of his uncle and fetch the priest to minister to him. While on his way to get the priest Mary comes to Juan Diego and wants to know what is happening that is keeping him from serving her. Here we see two different reactions than what we would have seen in the Old World. First, Juan Diego is pained to tell Mary of his uncle’s illness because he knows it will upset her. He is convinced of how much she loves and cares for her servants. Mary then responds restoring Juan Diego’s faith in her assuring him that nothing bad could happen if he had faith in her and then assuring Juan Diego that his uncle will be well. Unlike the Old World stories Mary then doesn’t order or demand Juan Diego to go show the sign, it is he that begs to be able to. <br />M.B. Servant of Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13686441055922333147noreply@blogger.com